Official Luthiers Forum!

First, I'd like to thank you all for the wealth of information available here.
when I decided a few months back I wanted to try my hand at building,
about the only info I could find was "read Cumpiano's book". After doing
so, I was worried. Having a forum like this (where Ive been "lurking" for a
while) is a definite help.
That said, I have a few questions I was hoping you all could help me
with. I'm about to sell my current guitar to finance the tools I'll need to
build, and Ive been trying to get a list of necessary tools together (with a
budget of roughly $2500). From what Ive read (mainly in your archives
and other forums), quite a few things have changed since cumpiano wrote
his book. I have access to a wordworking shop (my grandfather was a
furniture builder), complete with table saw, bandsaw, router, planer etc...
From there, cumpiano lists a plethora of chisels, saws, calipers... I plan
to buy some things as the need arises, but Im curious what the "expert
consensus" is on a few things.
    Currently, Im leaning towards purchasing a fox side bender (the only
one ive found is from lmi) as opposed to a bending iron. While I plan on
making my first guitar from agreeable wood (most likely IR or Walnut), Id
like to get into more testy woods, and the fox platform seems to be more
stable. Id welcome opinions on this decision or alternatives (if any) to the
lmi version of the machine.
   I also spend alot of time browsing through Stewmac, and I must admit
the amount of stuff available there is dizzying...fret presses, nut shaping
kits and jigs for everything imaginable...what would constitute essentials,
what would be "nice to have" and what is just fluff?
   Im also looking into purchasing the video set offered my Mr. Mayes, as
Im more of a visual learner. Good idea?
Im sure I could ask a million more questions, but as Ive been long-
winded enough, I'll stop for now. Again, thank you all for your help and
for the forum, its a pleasure to see the instruments youve built and learn
from your experience-

Welcome to the forum! This is in my opinion the best place on the web to share this type of information.
To address some of your questions:
Check out John Hall's side bender (Blues Creek). He's a great guy and a forum member. Every bit as good if not better than the LMI version.
There are lots of tools that you will "need" and some that you will "want". If you could make a list of tools that you like or think you need, we could probably put an X by the ones you need and cross off the list the ones you don't. Things like nut files are pretty much necessary. Unfortunately, they are very expensive. But if you have a repair shop near by you might be able to rent or borrow them. Get in tight with as many local guitar people as you can. It will pay off in the long run. Pwoolson38559.6889814815

Thanks Paul, you've already saved me $300. Id much rather purchase
from a forum member than Stewy anyway. I'll try and list some of the
tools Ive been contemplating:
side bender (again, thank you Paul)
Stew-mac "nut making kit" (various files, a nut vise, etc)
Possible stew-mac fret press (better than hammer method or overkill?)
Dremel tool (for various purposes, good idea?)
Handheld router (porter cable perhaps?)
Go bar deck (plan to build)
Various chisels (suggestions?)
Various clamps (suggestions?)

Another question, in regards to radiusing the top and back, Ive read
about dishes (I believe someone here actually makes them). How are
these used...they sound like a time saver based on what Ive read, Im just
not too sure how thyer employed... again, thanks to all for the help

On the bending. I agree that in time you will want a fox bender... nearly all of us have them... But, I would recommend that you start with a pipe. You will ALWAYS have to hand bend something... even with a fox bender. Bindings, purflings, side touch ups etc.

I personally would say start with walnut (it bends like plastic, and is very easy to work with) and a pipe.

EIR is pretty easy too, but I think Walnut is pretty safe, and very cheap if you break a set.

_________________
Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

[QUOTE=Mhudson]
side bender (again, thank you Paul)
Stew-mac "nut making kit" (various files, a nut vise, etc)
Possible stew-mac fret press (better than hammer method or overkill?)
Dremel tool (for various purposes, good idea?)
Handheld router (porter cable perhaps?)
Go bar deck (plan to build)
Various chisels (suggestions?)
Various clamps (suggestions?)

Another question, in regards to radiusing the top and back, Ive read
about dishes (I believe someone here actually makes them). How are
these used...they sound like a time saver based on what Ive read, Im just
not too sure how thyer employed... again, thanks to all for the help[/QUOTE]

Side bender -- see above.
Fret kit -- sure... you will need all of this stuff eventually, provided you build more than 1 guitar.
Fret press -- no. A deadblow hammer and a bag of buck shot will do fine.
dremel tool -- not necessary, but a handy tool to have -- I have a very love/hate relationship with these things.
Handheld Router (Laminate trimmer) - A PC310 is a great tool if the budget allows for it. Another nice accessory is a set of the LMI bearing collars and binding bit. That is a nice tool.
Go bar deck - yep.
Chisels... buy some inexpensive ones. I think lots of people are using Marples as a good set of utility chisels. I started with a really cheap set, and they worked fine. I invested in a good set later.
Radius dishes - yep, you will need one for the top, and one for the back. Probably 15' and 28' if you follow what most people are using. They are used to sand braces to profile, profile your sides, true up your linings, be the dish you glue everything up in. In short, they are VERY handy tools.

Some good straight edges will be helpful too... but again, how much you spend probably depends on how many guitars you see yourself building. If this is going to be a new hobby... just buy a good set in various lengths.

Oh, and another really good tool is a decent hand plane. There are 1,000,001 uses for these.

Brock Poling38559.7136921296

_________________
Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

Thanks for the help Brock. I have good straight edges as well as a nice
hand plane on the list. do radised dishes stand alone, or are they
attached to some other aparatus (thats probably spelled wrong)?

Hudson,
Welcome to one of the greatest forums on the internet. I was in your shoes just a few short years ago and had the same questions. I have bought many useless tools because I didn't know any better. Some of the things that I cherish:
-Good set of radius dishes for top and back( I use 15' & 28')
-Good caliper that will show fractions of an inch
-Good thickness caliper for thicknessing the top and back
-Gotta have the nut files. I tried doing my first guitar without them, and my nut was a disaster.
-Dremel tool
-Dremel tool base and circle cutting jig from stew-mac
-Go bar deck, easy enough to make in an hour.
-Fiberglass rods for go-bar deck, get 24 or 40 or these from www.intothewind.com
-My new brace radiusing jig, this will create braces for your top and back in under 60 sec.
-My new domed radius dishes for shaping the bottom of your bridge.
-My own rabbet bit with 19 bearings for use with a laminate trimmer for cutting the binding channels--you will not find this cheaper anywhere on the internet!
-I made my own form and side bender, but I wish I had started with a nice side bender. So I do recommend the one from John Hall at Blues Creek Guitars.
-Robert O'Brien's DVD on how to build a steel string, indispensable!
-John Mayes DVD's, fantastic!
Check out my website for more interesting jigs:
LuthierSuppliers.com
And ask many questions here!
Tracy

Mark,

Welcome!

Here's some thoughts a suggestion that may be a little different than what you have in mind, but are worth considering.

First, some thoughts.

Even among experienced luthiers, many do not do everything themselves. Some people invest a few grand in a good resaw bandsaw and thickness sander so they can resaw/thickness their own back & side sets; but many good luthiers buy back & side woods pre-machined. (Even if you buy boards to machine yourself, it's hard to match either the price or the quality of wood you get from some of the suppliers that advertise here, even if you don't take into account your tool cost). Most of us probably bend our own sides, but many luthiers supply houses will do that for you for a small charge for standard body shapes, and it's certainly nothing to be ashamed of. There are also several people on this forum that do not do their own finishing, preferring to send that job out. That can save money over a nice HVLP spray system, depending on how many you make.

The bottom line is that you don't need to buy all the tools up front, and I personally think it is unwise to do so. You can quickly spend a lot of money on some of these tools --- far more than your budget --- only to find out that $2000 for a good resaw bandsaw and a $1000 for a good thickness sander might be better used buying one or two dozen beautiful back & side sets from the Zootman.

For your first guitar, it may be wise to hold off on a lot of expensive tools until you figure out which tools you are most likely to use.

Second, the suggestion.

In keeping with the thoughts described above, think about getting a kit from StewMac or Luthier's Mercantile or Martin. All offer an IR version with very nice materials. I made a StewMac kit for my first dreadnought, and it produced an outstanding instrument that still gets excitement and comments from everyone who plays it or hears me play it.

The kits are, for the most part, just a set of good quality materials packaged up together. For the most part, you will have to do all the work except a couple of tasks that require expensive or luthier-specific tools. The back, sides & top are thicknessed, the sides are bent, the neck joint is cut pretty close, and the fingerboard is shaped & slotted. The rosette channel is also cut. You do most everything else yourself. The StewMac kit comes with a great instructional video that has a lot of very good tips on it that you will take with you on future guitars. I'm sure the Martin and LMI kits are equally good.

I don't want to discourage you from going the non-kit route if that's what you want to do. But I advise against dumping huge sums of money into tools until you decide you really need them. Start building, and see what you need as you need it.

[delayed edit: Mark, with all that said, the list of tools you have put together is a good start!]Kelby38559.7344328704

some of your list can be built very easily and doing so will save you a lot of money, such as the side bender and the radius dishes. there is also a lot of satisfaction to be derived from working with tools you have made yourself.

does your grandfathers shop also include a laminate trimmer, if not i would seriouly consider buying one, and yes the pc 310 is the dearest one around and the best.

a set of nut files is necessary, and will be useful even if you only build one instrument, if you continue to play afterwards anyway.

a good quality 36" ruler/straight edge graduated in 0.01" and 1/64" is a must i feel. enco is the best source i know of. if you are going to build classicals you will want one in metric to 0.5mm. a dial caliper is also available there, as is an inexpensive dial indicator for making a thickness caliper for measuring your plates thickness.

clamps of all kind can be usefull. what is in granddad's shop? cam clams will probably have to be made or bought. again making them will save a lot of money.

do you have or have access to a compressor? has a myriad of uses.

making a complete list of what is in granddad's shop and then comparing to the list of what you need/want will be a good starting point.

Here is my 2 cents. I started my first guitar about 6 months ago and I'll be putting the finish on it this weekend. Like you I started with the suggestion to read Cumpiano's book, so I ordered the book and one of the standard kits from LMI.

Between Cumpiano's book and the info you will find on forums like this one, you can get pretty far. The downside is the learning curve is pretty severe.

A couple months ago I got a copy of Robert O'briens DVD. The best advice I could give someone who wants to build their first guitar is to get that DVD and watch it a couple of times before you buy anything. And read this forum every day.

Good luck!
Wayne

_________________
53% of all statistics are made up on the spot
http://driftwoodguitars.blogspot.com/

[QUOTE=Mhudson] Thanks for the help Brock. I have good straight edges as well as a nice
hand plane on the list. do radised dishes stand alone, or are they
attached to some other aparatus (thats probably spelled wrong)?[/QUOTE]

No, they set inside your go bar deck for gluing, and for profiling they come out and you line them with sandpaper.

_________________
Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

[QUOTE=WayneC] Here is my 2 cents. I started my first guitar about 6 months ago and I'll be putting the finish on it this weekend. Like you I started with the suggestion to read Cumpiano's book, so I ordered the book and one of the standard kits from LMI.

Between Cumpiano's book and the info you will find on forums like this one, you can get pretty far. The downside is the learning curve is pretty severe.

A couple months ago I got a copy of Robert O'briens DVD. The best advice I could give someone who wants to build their first guitar is to get that DVD and watch it a couple of times before you buy anything. And read this forum every day.

Good luck!
Wayne[/QUOTE]

Thanks Wayne for the positive feedback. Just for everyone's information, the classical DCVD I released was done using mostly powertools but makes references to and shows how to use hand tools for some things. My Steel string building DVD is more oriented towards hand tools. I even thickness a top using a handplane. I wanted to show that you don't have to make a major investment in tools in order to build a guitar. Even though you are going to build a classical guitar you may find it useful to watch my steel string building DVD and vice versa as many of the techniques are used for both styles.
Good luck.

One thing nobody has mentioned is a hygrometer. Once you start working with thin wooden plates, and begin watching them curl up before your eyes, you'll start thinking about humidity control. You can get a pretty good one from radioshack, not sure of the price over there, here they're going for $40 or $50.

A lot of these tools (fox bender, thickness sander, cam clamps ete etc) you can build yourself. Saves money and hones your woodworking skills at the same time.

Hudson,

Welcome! I am a beginner luthier, so my own list of tools has a lot to do with research rather than experience...

There are several vendors here that have superb tools and jigs for sale. By all means, if you have the cash, and especially if you plan on making a bunch of guitars, you could consider their stuff. However, if you plan to build just one guitar, or want to tool-up slowly and/or cheaply, then here are some "cheap" ideas:

I didn't see a fret saw on your list. I bought the one from LMI (25 years ago!) and made a fretting jig out of MDF, aluminum angle iron, 2 bolts, and 4 nuts. It is simple to make, and allows you to set a radius and cut to a specific depth. I think the fret saws' kerf and the desired fretwire should be matched, so that may influence where you buy a fret saw.

The Marples chisels with the blue plastic handles are about as good as anything under $100, and they go for about $30-$35 at Home Depot or Menards.

To go along with your radius dishes, you'll want to either construct a "go-bar deck", or find a spot between a very stable countertop and a ceiling or cabinet that will work as a go-bar deck. Check prices on fiberglass rods as someone mentioned, and as an alternative, check out Ebay for wood dowels. (I got 25 wood dowels at less than half the price of Home Depot, including shipping.)

Rockler woodworking has pretty good prices on hand scrapers.

I think it is worthwhile to build one of the binding jigs that uses a laminate trimmer. There are several different types out there and plans are available.

I know a bunch of luthiers are rubbing (French polishing) or brushing on a finish, so I know it can be done. However, to this old cabinet and furniture maker, I can't imagine finishing without a spray rig. I bought a medium-small compressor (7CFM) and a cheap HVLP gun. You may want to read up on KTM-9 application tips by Mike Doolin at LMI's website.

Hope this helps!

Dennis

_________________
Dennis Leahy
Duluth, MN, USA
7th Sense Multimedia

I would suggest that you buy either a wagner safety planer or Gilbert sanding disc if you don't already own a thickness drum sander. I also would like to add my vote for Robbie O'brien's videos as well as John Mayes' DVD set, having both sets will save you money and heartache in the long run.

I do have one other suggestion. My first guitar was the basic standard kit from LMI. Its pretty convenient - all the parts in one box. It also leaves a lot of woodworking to the builder. All-in-all I'm really pleased with the quality of the kit.

The only thing I would have done differently would be to get the deluxe kit instead. The basic kit has sapele b/s, and while I think the sapele looks real nice (especially now that it has a coat of epoxy on it), the sides were a real b$%*& to bend. I understand the EIR sides in the deluxe kit would have been easier for a novice to work with. I think just a few extra $$ would have saved me some frustration.

Wayne

_________________
53% of all statistics are made up on the spot
http://driftwoodguitars.blogspot.com/

You need to consider tools for fretting and fret dressing, the dressing is a difficult one as different people swear by different things if you look in the tools jigs and techniques section Tim Mcknight has prepared a great article alomg with some tips on tools.

Hope this helps a little, Good Luck

Welcome Hudson...
Boy, are you gonna have fun on this Forum.
The nicest people in the world are right here!
Enjoy!!
WalterK

Hudson,
I agree with Brock-you should start with a pipe before using a Fox style bender.
I bent the sides on my first 20 guitars using a simple steel pipe and a propane torch. It works great for me.
I still use an electric iron.

Brad

Hudson,
I built my first guitar from scratch, and I had no woodworking experience. It can be done, trust me. I felt that a side bending machine and blanket were the best way to get consistent and perfect results, so I didn't want to waste time using a pipe. I took a college course with Robert O'Brien and I brought in my side bending machine to demonstrate to the other students while everyone else used the stew-mac pipe. After seeing a few of them crack there sides, I was so thankful I had invested $60 and some time to make my own sidebending form. Good luck in whatever you choose.
Tracy

Hello, and welcome.
I'm new too, just ready to start building my first. I had a well equipped woodworking shop already, but I have spent the past 8 months building tools and jigs to get ready for this highly anticipated branching off of my furniture making. I built a 22" wide thickness sander for $200 that works really well. I made a go bar deck, binding routing contraption, two double sided radius dishes (15' AND 28'), brace shaping jig, fretboard taper jig, peg head drilling jig, bridge shaping jig, saddle slot cutting and peg hole drilling jig, peg head drilling jig, side bender, guitar mold, and have all my templates made. I think I have everything I need but EXPERIENCE. If I don't get my humidity under control it may be October before I start. By the way, the ideas for everything I built came from the forums, internet, and a couple of books.

Ron

_________________
OLD MAN formerly (and formally) known as:

Ron Wisdom

Somewhere in the middle of Arkansas......

[QUOTE=old man] Hello, and welcome.
I'm new too, just ready to start building my first. I had a well equipped woodworking shop already, but I have spent the past 8 months building tools and jigs to get ready for this highly anticipated branching off of my furniture making. I built a 22" wide thickness sander for $200 that works really well. I made a go bar deck, binding routing contraption, two double sided radius dishes (15' AND 28'), brace shaping jig, fretboard taper jig, peg head drilling jig, bridge shaping jig, saddle slot cutting and peg hole drilling jig, peg head drilling jig, side bender, guitar mold, and have all my templates made. I think I have everything I need but EXPERIENCE. If I don't get my humidity under control it may be October before I start. By the way, the ideas for everything I built came from the forums, internet, and a couple of books.

Ron[/QUOTE]

Your good to go Ron! One of the guys who works for me decided he should be building if he's working with us. He's working in an uninsulated 20x20 shed and last I checked he roughs out his mandolins using a steel grinder thats been refitted with a sanding disk of some sort .. It's not about what you "need" don't get to tied up on what you "want" =)

_________________
CVT Inc.
A tour of our shop (Somewhat outdated)
My Personal eBay profile. BCWoodBug

Hi Hudson and welcome

I too would advise that for a first guitar get a kit from one of the suppliers. I started with a StewMac 000 kit, just changed the binding and ended up with a very acceptable guitar despite very limited talent, some might say I still have very limited talent!. The instructions that come with the kit are good. What you want for a first guitar is one that you have a better than evens chance turns out OK without having to build a fully equipped shop for what might be the only instument that you build. Some of the tricky stuff (which later becomes the very satisfying stuff) is done for you. Yes go with the kit, but buy the dishes and build a go-bar.

Check out the Jigs and tools section here and check out some of the build sites, Mario's and say Kathy Matsushita's for an invaluable lesson.

Colin

Colin

(So good he signed it twice)

_________________
I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

[QUOTE=tl507362] Hudson,
I built my first guitar from scratch, and I had no woodworking experience. It can be done, trust me. I felt that a side bending machine and blanket were the best way to get consistent and perfect results, so I didn't want to waste time using a pipe. I took a college course with Robert O'Brien and I brought in my side bending machine to demonstrate to the other students while everyone else used the stew-mac pipe. After seeing a few of them crack there sides, I was so thankful I had invested $60 and some time to make my own sidebending form. Good luck in whatever you choose.
Tracy[/QUOTE]


So, is this helping... one group tells you to go with a side bender, and another tells you to learn the technique on a pipe.   

Is this clearing up your questions?   

In reality there are a lot of roads that will get you where you want to go. Again, I think most of these decisions will be dependant on how many guitars do you see yourself building. If this is going to be a new hobby for you I don't think you can invest too poorly in any of the tools suggested here.

But also.... there are some skills that need acquired too, and I think if you short circuit that process it will make it harder for you down the road.

I think a stewmac kit would be a great place to start if you are uncomfortable with the the thought of some of the steps, or don't have the tools you need and want to minimize that investment. But I also think that you could do a fine job with raw parts. If you get stuck I am sure someone here could even help you with some of the prep (thinning plates, etc.) if you needed access to tools you don't have.

Lots of choices. I think in the end though... just get started.

_________________
Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

I would use a bending iron to start with, just use a good easy to bend wood like rosewood or walnut. In time you will probably be able to bend almost anything on it. I don't really think you need a router for your first guitar. The only thing I use a router for is routing the truss rod slot and I did my first few guitars with a dremel. A dremel is a must. You can buy the inexpensive dremel router base to rout your soundhole rosette stuff. The brass edge guide that you get from stew mac is great for routing binding and purfling grooves and mounts right on the the dremel router base. You have to cut them in several passes because of the tools low power but I would never cut binding/purfling channels in one pass anyway, it's to risky, once you cut to deep it's to late. Don't forget a block plane I could never build a guitar without one. Really good chisels are not that important. The blue handled Marples are what I use. Setup a good sharpening system.Not anything expensive, just something that works for you. A radius dish is not a must, I don't have one and I'm working on my ninth guitar. I do it just like in the Cumpiano book. For your first guitar you can buy a pre-slotted fretboard or buy a special fretslotting miter box. DO NOT try to cut the slots free hand with a square against the edge like in the book (especially in ebony).